[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back, Rewilders. Brooke here. I'm deep in production for Rewildology's next season, but I couldn't wait to share this special in Betweener Sode with you.
Today, I'm sitting down with Natalie Sibel and Coral Carson, the hosts of the Planet People podcast, to explore a region that's never been featured on Rewildology before. The Mojave Desert.
Most of us think of deserts as barren wastelands, but Natalie and Coral are here to change that narrative. We're diving into why California's Desert Heart is one of the most biodiverse and ecologically critical landscapes in North America, the surprising threats it's facing, and the incredible conservation winds happening right now.
If you've ever wondered what life looks like beneath the surface of the Mojave, or why closing a dumpster lid can save a desert tortoise, this conversation is for you.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: Alright, everyone, let's get into it.
Well, hi, Natalie and Coral. I am so stoked to chat with both of you today. I would love for you to introduce who both of you are, what you do and what led you into nature podcasting. So, Coral, we'll start with you.
[00:01:20] Speaker C: Great. Yeah. My name is Coral Carson and I am the co host of Planet People podcast and I'm also the creative director. And so Natalie started the podcast and I'm just. We're best friends and I was like, I'm, I'm hopping on this ride. Um, I am not a scientist. I am actually.
I have an art background and I work in animation and so I've always. In another life, I'm like, I am some kind of biologist of all the animals because I love them so much.
[00:01:51] Speaker D: But you are, you're an honorary biologist?
[00:01:55] Speaker C: Yes.
I definitely don't have the science degrees there, but I just like to be a part of this world in any way that I can. And so using my media skills for that is a pleasure and an honor. So that's me.
[00:02:10] Speaker B: Oh, fantastic. Their skills are just as needed. I keep saying that over and over and over. Like, as someone who has a hardcore science background, I'm like, oh, my gosh. I apparently needed a gazillion art skills that I'm like developing post facto right now.
So don't diminish yourself. It's very needed.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: But.
[00:02:27] Speaker D: And Coral's amazing at media and so is her partner, Hugh. Shout Out Hugh Carr. He's also on the Planet People pod team. But yeah, I'll give myself a little introduction. I'm Natalie and I founded Planet People during my Master's degree a few years back when I was in search of conservation solutions.
And along with being a podcast, Planet People is also really a platform for community based conservation.
And we tell and we share lots of stories about all the people doing amazing work on the ground here in Southern California. And I've been lucky enough to meet a lot of these people on my own journey as a wildlife biologist. So when I'm not podcasting, I'm in the field meeting all kinds of cool scientists and people making a difference.
And I thought, well, we have a lot of information here and a lot of people that are really good at what they do and they know a lot about the environment.
It's time to communicate this information in a digestible way. And I thought, what better way to do that than with storytelling? And so that's how Planet People came to be. And so much has followed since that, including Coral and Hugh joining. And we're in, you know, in year three in season two now things are going well.
[00:03:40] Speaker B: Yes. And I would love to get to the big topic of your current season. You just hinted at it, Southern California, which is really cool. And this entire region has not been represented on Robotology. So I'm very excited to learn from you. I've barely even been in this area. I flew to San Diego once and it was just for one overnight to go down into Baja California, Mexico. So I can't even claim that I've been there. So I have so much to learn from you.
So for those who are like me and don't know anything about this area, about the Mojave Desert or anything like that, could you give us a little, like, Desert Ecology 101? And of this particular region, why is this so ecologically cool and different?
[00:04:28] Speaker D: Yeah, great question. I'm happy to answer that.
So Southern California in general is dominated by desert habitat. Roughly 30 to 30, 30 to 34% of the state. State is desert habitat. So California is dominated by desert habitat. And my favorite quote actually is California has a desert heart. And most people don't know that the beating heart of California is actually the desert. And that's the beauty of San Diego county, is that there are so many diverse habitats in this county, including the desert. So you have the Colorado Desert and the Mojave Desert, and there is a convergence zone there where those two deserts do meet. And you can see that in Joshua Tree, which is about two and a half hours east of San Diego. And so you can get there by car pretty easily in Southern California. And I do a lot of Field work out that way. And the type of field work that I do surrounds the California State reptile, which is the Mojave Desert tortoise. And so when I'm working with them, I'm always out in Joshua Tree, the Barstow area. So this is the high desert, the Mojave Desert. And in season two of Planet People, we dive deep into the roles of the desert tortoise, other species in the environment that provide habitat like the Joshua Tree.
Life overlooked is kind of the theme of this episode.
And so it's really exciting that through my work of studying them, we've been able to share some of these species on the ground facing threats from climate change, while also kind of understanding the bigger picture of the entire Mojave landscape and the importance of it ecologically.
[00:06:02] Speaker B: So in your line of work, then, and it sounds like you just hinted on it a little bit, what are some of the common misconceptions that you run into all the time about either the desert biome in general or. And. Or this particular region or the species that are there?
[00:06:20] Speaker D: Most people's idea of the desert is that it's kind of a wasteland. It's a barren landscape. And. And I do think the reason for that is because humans aren't necessarily adapted to survive in such a harsh landscape. And what makes it unique are the species that are overlooked there. And the reason why they're overlooked is because most of these animals live beneath the surface of the soil.
And this is due to their burrowing capabilities and adaptations to seek shade underneath the ground. And so humans don't see a lot of these animals in their first visit to the desert, and so they think they're. That maybe it's devoid of life.
And we're here to change that narrative at Planet People as we dive deep into how biodiverse the desert really is. The fauna. Talking about the wildflowers of the desert, the Joshua trees, the creosote scrub, there's a lot of unique plants in the desert landscape that actually only occur in the Mojave region.
And. And that's what I mean when I say endemic. They're native to this area.
If you go further east into the Sonoran Desert, then you'll see that it's a completely different landscape, covered in saguaro cactus and much more dense shrub. It's almost like a desert forest floor. Whereas the Mojave is a bit more barren, and you might find that it's dominated by creosote, which is something that we talk a lot about in our season and the importance of this plant on the landscape as a rooting system for desert tortoises to burrow beneath as a means for keeping the soil in the ground. And so when we remove creosote from the earth, then we see more dust kicking up in the air and that can create hazards and things like that.
So there's lots of reasons why the desert is important. And the flowers and the plants and all of the rare endemic species of fauna that exist there make this region super important for fighting climate change. The desert is a carbon sink. And so those plants act as a way to soak up those fossil fuels from the atmosphere and store that carbon beneath the soil. And so that soil is really ancient. It's actually called cryptobiotic soil, and it's this really thick layer of desert crust that has been there for generations. And it's through that soil that can accumulate carbon from the atmosphere and by then act as a carbon sink. So a natural fighter to climate change.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes total sense. And knowing how important this area is, and also, as you said, it's commonly deserts in general, we just don't really think about them. Even conservationists don't even really think about them.
And so from what you, you know, you working there, both of you talking to all of these conservationists, what are some of the most pressing challenges right now that the Mojave is experiencing for?
[00:09:20] Speaker C: I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the human raven tortoise cycle is probably one of the biggest. And then also just the development of land, I know that's been kind of like wishy washy all year, but the development for energy solutions, which would then also contribute to the raven issue.
What do you think, Nat?
[00:09:46] Speaker D: I think you hit the nail on the head there, especially with this subsidy issue that we're experiencing with population explosion in the desert of people and other animals that are otherwise, like, wouldn't occur at such high levels. So when Coral mentions the raven tortoise human complex, she's referring to the explosion of raven populations and how they're wreaking havoc on desert reptiles, including the desert tortoise, along with other species. And so that comes at the effect of land development with more people. It's like this cascading series of effects that are definitely centered around like an anthropogenic problem. Right. A human induced issue here.
And that's why when we talk about the raven tortoise trash complex on our season, we try not to phrase it as the raven problem. Right. A lot of people Think there's this raven problem, but it's the human subsidy issue. And so that's really a big pressing issue in the desert, is there have otherwise been very remote regions of the Mojave that are being inundated with illegal weed farms.
Widespread solar farm development across the Mojave, especially when you go east from Palm Springs to Phoenix, there's several big farms, solar farms out there.
And so I think just to. Yeah, basically make a short story longer of what Coral was saying, it's its land development, the subsidy issue, solar expansion kind of going at an unprecedented rate. Really, it's moving very quickly in the desert. I would say that's one of the major threats is solar farm expansion.
[00:11:33] Speaker B: So everyone listening is probably just like, wait, what did you just say? Ravens and desert tortoise and human conflict. Could you explain this further? What is going on with ravens and desert tortoises and humans? Like, what's that conflict?
[00:11:48] Speaker D: Coral, do you want to share a story about how we went to a farm and interviewed Tim and then we can dive into the. I can share about Katie's episode a little bit and go into more of the social ecology of it all?
[00:12:00] Speaker C: Yeah, we've had a few guests on that kind of touch on this issue. So really what it is, is. And when we're saying human induced is the more humans that are in the desert environment, the more subsidy sites. For instance, a dairy farm, which we had one of our episodes at a random dairy farm in the Mojave Desert with Tim Shields. And that was so that we could see for our very own eyes all of these hundreds and hundreds of ravens that are just sitting upside the awnings of this desert farm. They're able to feed from, you know, the feed of. For the cows. And also when we say trash, like they're around a lot of dumpsters, and then this creates this population boom with ravens, and they tend to go for. Are these tortoises. And so we've seen a huge decline in desert tortoises.
And Natalie is a desert tortoise biologist. So, you know, she's been out there kind of seeing just the. The rapid decline. And even talking to Tim, I mean, he's been a desert tortoise for years and years and years, and he's like, you used to go out there and see a, you know, hundreds of them, and now it's, like, rare if you see one. So Tim, for instance, is taking a technology approach of how can we solve this issue with tech and expanding our technology in conservation? And so he came up with these laser guns, they're non lethal, they're more irritating than anything to the ravens. You like, shoot them either on the ground, anywhere that they can see the laser and then they just immediately fly off. And they've seen that they haven't necessarily adapted to not care about the lasers, which is great because they're really smart species.
So it's kind of this one technology niche that they found that could actually work as well as egg oiling and a few other different initiatives. And we talked to Katie Shaw at the Living Desert Zoo and what they're doing with their Time to Talk Trash program. But ravens go after desert tortoises. I think that's like the, the short of it.
[00:14:29] Speaker D: Yeah. So I can share a little bit about kind of the bigger picture behind this complex through our interview with Katie Shaw. And she. Katie Shaw is a social scientist with the Living Desert Zoo and I had the pleasure of interning with her for my master's program to kind of learn about this really interesting, what I call social ecological issue. And that's just kind of a term that describes how humans are interacting with the natural world and how the natural world is then interacting with them. It's like a cycle of social, human aspect, right. You have your non profit groups, your governmental groups, all these stakeholders that are impacting the ecology of it. So whatever environment you're in, in this case, our presence is impacting an increase in the raven population. Right. So it's this cycle between humans and the natural world and how that interacts is called social ecology. So you see that really begin to play out with the ravens and the desert tortoises. And I saw this firsthand when I was interning with Katie, kind of volunteering a little bit interning and what they were doing with their Time to Talk Trash program.
And so this is a really interesting program because it takes a good look at the social ecology of it all and how to basically provide a solution by implementing these programs that help reduce trash problems at local restaurants across the Mojave Desert.
And so by contacting your business owners. And we did these in person interventions with business owners telling them like, hey, if you know, if you close your dumpster will reward you with a gold star. So it's kind of like this reward based program that aims to reduce trash at local restaurants, therefore reducing raven intake and hopefully predation on desert reptiles and things like that. And so the Time to Talk Trash program is really cool because it's a social initiative aimed at changing human behavior. And I think that's something we really need to focus on in conservation and taking a look at the psychology of our actions and how minor things can really make a big difference in helping that social ecology, that cycle really break the cycle almost and have it be in balance.
Yeah.
[00:16:51] Speaker B: And people just understanding and having the knowledge that one simple act that we don't even think of, just like closing a trash bin, the dumpster, just how the cascade of effects that it could have in a positive way just by that one action of coexisting with wildlife, like, that is such a cool concept. And if we don't know, we don't know, you know, there's nothing wrong. I'm sure. I highly doubt that anybody was like, oh, I want to boost the raven population to hurt the desert tortoises. You know, Right when everyone's trying to do that.
So a little bit of knowledge can go a long way. It's amazing.
[00:17:26] Speaker C: Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, no one's going to know.
I would never, ever have thought about this ever, unless Natalie is here to tell me. And it's like, that's because I have a best friend in conservation, but, like, I would not have known. And that's what I like about the time to talk trash is they actually, when they partner with a business, they give them these little pamphlets that they have on, like, tables at restaurants and. And it kind of gives you a little informational about the raven and tortoise relationship out there and how to prevent it.
[00:18:01] Speaker D: Yeah. How to prevent it. It's the preventative care that can really make a difference. And I think that's what's cool about the program because it's, it's not like reprimanding you, it's just encouraging positive behavior by like a small habitual change.
And yeah, the cascading effects can be very positive.
[00:18:18] Speaker C: It reminds me of like the sea turtle and straw initiative and how you would see those in restaurants all the time.
[00:18:24] Speaker D: Yeah, so true.
[00:18:25] Speaker C: Yeah. But we encouraged in, in that episode at, at the end of each episode, we do like an anxiety into action piece because, you know, it's, it's daunting, all of these different environmental issues and feeling like you can't do anything about it. And I just feel like this program is so awesome and I would love to see it across like all zoos because I'm sure, I'm sure that there's issues like this in all ecosystems that it's so simple of, like, close your trash bin. This will help in actually a much better way. I feel like there's like small things like that just across the world that we could just be tweaking and doing better in our lives and yeah, I would. I want to know what others use are doing to help those type of issues.
[00:19:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I was just in a really interesting meeting today and most people around the world want to see a healthier planet. Like this isn't.
It's not like a left or right issue. Most people want to see a beautiful world, a healthy world for next generations.
And a lot of it is just knowing what to do when. Especially because some of these issues seem so daunting.
[00:19:37] Speaker D: So do you know what I have to say to that?
What the. What can we do? How do we start?
Just be yourself.
Be yourself. Your energy and your presence and your gifts, your unique skill set, your thumbprint that can contribute in any way possible towards protecting the planet.
It's just removing the title from it. Like if you're a computer scientist, like okay, you're someone who's good at using technology, you can use that skill and anyway for helping conservation, if you're an artist or anything, just be your unique self.
[00:20:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I could not agree more.
[00:20:16] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:20:16] Speaker B: And just one little action, just like knowing one thing that we could do when these things seem so daunting, it's like, oh, you know, I just spent a lot of time in Yellowstone on a film shoot and got to meet some really cool.
Just these really amazing conservationists that are trying to make Jackson like the model city for bear coexistence.
[00:20:35] Speaker C: Cool.
[00:20:35] Speaker B: And we went out and delivered bear proof trash cans, you know, and something as simple as just getting one of these trash cans can be like life or death for a bear, you know, so a seemingly small act.
So I love how you bring that up. Just like closing your dumpster lids at restaurants. Like that is such an easy action that could have a far positive benefit.
[00:21:02] Speaker D: Tremendous reach.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: Yes, I love that. Another issue that you brought up that I would love to learn more about is are these energy solutions and subsidies? So what's going on there?
[00:21:15] Speaker D: Energy solutions in place in California. That's where there's this juxtaposition with renewable energy. Right. Because you want to believe that we have these green energy solutions that are working towards reducing our dependency on fossil fuels. That is the goal of renewable energy to use natural resources, solar, wind and water, hydro.
And it's using these in a way that allows there to still be a natural flux of pristine landscape. I'll say. And I say that mainly because I'm a little bit biased being in Southern California and A desert tortoise biologist. I've worked on these large solar farm projects before. I don't anymore because I don't morally agree with them. But I think the main concern with promoting energy solutions in this country is sacrificing healthy landscapes to install a lot of these energy solutions. And we have to ask ourselves what is better because renewable energy is important. We want to reduce our fossil fuel dependency and it's a step in the right direction. We're making progress as humans moving towards a greener solution, but it cannot be at the cost of natural lands. And we are seeing that happen in California, especially with the sell off of Bureau of Land Management lands this year with like that whole scare about the public lands and the big beautiful bill. Like I do fear for the state of public lands in this country, especially in the Mojave Desert where there's a lot of surrounding red states near California that are very anti Mojave Desert Conservation Corridor, which is this connectivity of the Mojave Desert landscape starting in California from the Chuckwalla Monument going up into Nevada. And, and so in that way I think we really have to prioritize the ways in which we're using our, our renewable energies. Are we installing solar panels on existing structures, on parking lots, over on houses? Like we need to get more creative here than just bulldozing the desert. It's just not going to cut it. It's not going to have like what's going to happen when humans disappear from the earth. There's just going to be these giant battery powered solar panels in the middle of the desert. Like that just sounds crazy to me. And when you see it for yourself, you're like, this isn't right.
We just removed how many tortoises from this place to install farms? How many Joshua trees were bulldozed? And so this is where the renewable energy thing can get dicey in my opinion is if we're taking up too much land mass. And that's where people say, I've heard someone say this, I heard this early in my career actually that the only thing green about renewable energy is the money.
So just keep that in mind because it still is just another form of like energy and for people to like capitalize on, yes, it's important to reduce dependency on fossil fuels. Like I keep going, coming back to that. I am so pro that and I don't want to sound like anti renewables, but we can't sacrifice the land for energy solutions because the land is all that we have.
[00:24:36] Speaker C: I think with any industry, it's like, you find, oh, this could be a solution. This could be. This could work. And like, we're seeing this in the age of AI and, you know, all of these things, like, and then it's just like full steam ahead. Like, let's not take a second to figure it out. And like, you're saying a creative way and it's just a lot of times more obvious ways are the path forward. And sometimes that's not always, like, the greenest path forward.
We talk a lot about energies in an upcoming episode with Kurt Leuschner.
I think that might come out in January, but it's definitely one to look out for because he really breaks down all different types of energies, not just solar and wind, but, yeah, all. All different types and the impacts in California.
[00:25:28] Speaker D: He did a great job.
[00:25:30] Speaker C: Yeah. For instance, like wind, you know, wind energy is interesting because it actually gets in the way with, like, flight paths of birds. So, yeah, just some things that I guess you just don't think about.
I don't know, whoever's developing these things, like, they might not think about, oh, flight path of birds or, oh, we would have to move all of these desert tortoises and, you know, there is going to be impact when you go for large pieces of land.
[00:26:04] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I actually was on the board of an amazing organization called Canine Conservationist that was hired regularly out on a big wind farm in the Midwest to study and find how many wildlife were being killed by the wind farm that their dogs, their scent detection dogs were finding all over the wind farm. So it's a real thing. It's a real thing that we have to take into account when we are building these new renewable energy sources. And just like you said, Natalie, a second ago, like, follow the money is, or, you know, the only thing green about energy solutions is money.
So with everyone that you're talking to between, you know, you being in the field, Natalie, and then both of you sitting down with these amazing conservationists all over the Mojave, how is it being prioritized or talked about or discussed? Discussed all of these different factors. Right. Talk about climate change, talking about solar development and something we haven't brought up, which I would love to hear both of your opinion on, and that's recreation because I'm sure that this is a big part of what is happening out there, too. So how are these three being balanced or prioritized? That's another big thing in this area with how people are protecting the land.
[00:27:21] Speaker C: I think that a lot of the organizations that we've talked to like for instance at Living Desert Zoo we talked to, it's not out yet, but the Mojave Desert Land Trust, all of these different, like nonprofits, I would say, that are local, are doing a really wonderful job of trying to manage and balance that. And I think, you know, specifically Mojave Desert Land Trust, like they do a great job at buying land that they can protect, that they can replant, reseed when it comes time that it needs to happen. For instance, with fires that happen out there.
In terms of recreation, it's interesting. There's a lot of like off roading and so there's big off roading communities. And it's about education, like educating that there are species out there in their path of no path, what's seemingly a no path, but there, there are are animals out there that need to be protected. And it's just about that educational component of hey, these guys are out here and you know, take care. When you are off roading and recreating in this way, I think another one is also preventing like poaching. We talk about poaching a lot in the season and even poaching of insects, like that was a huge shock to me.
And so it's about kind of being careful of advertising where you are in the landscape.
[00:29:06] Speaker D: No geotags allowed.
[00:29:08] Speaker C: That's great.
[00:29:08] Speaker B: Did you have anything you wanted to add to that, Natalie?
[00:29:11] Speaker D: Well, I think the recreation piece is a big part of how the landscape in California, the Mojave Desert is used versus other surrounding states.
There is a lot of BLM land in California which does allow for off roading. And so there's been an uptick in off roading like OHV activity in the desert since the pandemic. As you can imagine, people were doing everything they could to get outside.
And there have been more recent studies coming out of the USGS that are focused on the new disturbance from an aerial view of different trails that have been made in places that were otherwise more remote.
And so you're starting to see these more remote areas become tracked up by people on OHVs. Plants are run over, tortoises are more likely to be run over.
And that does happen, that does happen where people are off roading and they run over tortoises.
[00:30:19] Speaker B: So I'm sure that breaks your heart.
[00:30:20] Speaker D: When you see that recreationally. It's hard to manage that. And a lot of these folks maybe have a more traditional, conservative mindset and communicating to them about conservation needs is a double edged sword. You have to do it in a tasteful way and so there's, Again, it's the social ecology piece where you have different stakeholders involved in using the landscape, and recreational users are a huge stakeholder involved in this component of social ecology in the context of desert conservation, because they're having a big impact on the landscape, and it's hard to manage. There is no one solution to the management yet. But I would say we do have a good episode coming out about it with. Yeah, we talk about it in Mary Lane's episode, I think a little bit coral. Yeah. So that's coming out in December. I don't know when this will be out, but we share a little bit about it in the season. So give it a listen.
[00:31:14] Speaker B: Oh, cool. Oh, cool.
[00:31:16] Speaker C: To the Desert Tortoise Council.
And it's a good one. I also think another thing is there. I feel like there's also been a boom of people buying land out there. I feel like it's like the last, like, cheap area to buy land in California.
[00:31:33] Speaker D: Last Western frontier, baby.
[00:31:35] Speaker C: We were so happy we met somebody, actually in LA who has, like, a little homestead out there. And they're doing their absolute best to keep the environment exactly how it is. And they were even sharing pictures of desert tortoises that they saw out there on their land. And I'm like, this is so great to hear that you are doing everything that you can to keep, you know, the environment as it should be, instead of, you know, putting grass and invasive plants instead. Just honoring what's there. And I feel like we've been hearing more and more people do that, and I just like to hear that. I. I know that's a little bit more of, like, private land, but I kind of consider it recreation, too, because.
Yeah. I mean, this is like, your neighborhood. The whole kill your lawn initiative. I'm so here for.
[00:32:24] Speaker D: We should talk about the kill your lawn initiative.
[00:32:27] Speaker B: Yes, please go ahead, because I completely love this.
[00:32:29] Speaker D: Well, Brooke, you would love it, because it's kind of this concept of rewilding your backyard.
And it's this movement. Yeah. Called kill your lawn. Basically, remove that monotone grass weed that dominates most of North America in suburbs. You know, your white picket fence and green lawn will kill your green lawn and plant native plants.
And that's what Kurt Leuchner talks a lot about in his episode. And it's actually very inspiring because he talks about the increased biodiversity of birds and butterflies and all kinds of things that come to his yard. And he even converted basically his whole neighborhood block to kill their lawn and plant native plants. And so it's this movement across California to, and really, I think just North America in general to kill your lawn and spring back biodiversity to your yard. Because once those yards are connected in a way where it's full of biodiverse native plants, then it acts as a wildlife corridor for other birds to migrate through and travel through. And not just, you know, stop over in one little patch of grass, but it's a diverse array of plant life and trees and places to rest. And it's a beautiful thing when you kill your lawn.
[00:33:43] Speaker B: Oh my gosh. Yeah, I love this movement. I've seen an uptick in pollinator certified like yards and stuff like that. We could actually get like certificates and like plaques, like, I have a wildlife certified yard. You know, I love this movement that's happening right now. And yes, kill a lawn. And in a desert area, we don't need to be watering lawns.
[00:34:06] Speaker C: No, definitely not.
[00:34:08] Speaker B: That doesn't make any sense.
[00:34:10] Speaker D: It's a great way to rewild. It truly is.
[00:34:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:34:14] Speaker B: And just live with the landscape that we're on, you know, like wherever we're at.
I would love to stay on these hopeful stories for a while.
So are there any other successes that really give you hope for the Mojave?
[00:34:28] Speaker D: I love that question. I would say in the Mojave Desert in terms of conservation successes.
And one of my favorite stories is about a rewilding effort actually with the Living Desert Zoo in conjunction with the Edwards Air Force Base and the San Diego Zoo is also involved. So two different zoos are helping in basically rewilding this part of the Edwards Air Force Base with tortoise hatchlings. And so the Living Desert's role in this is really unique in that they've started a captive breeding center for baby tortoises to grow and reach a mature size where they can better fend for themselves in the wild. And so actually it's really fascinating. The Living Desert Zoo is training these tortoise hatchlings to be more like, readily available for a raven strike. They train them to hear the sounds of a raven when they're young.
And so they have really good defense mechanisms. And that way when they're, you know, spending the first six months of their life at the captive breeding center. And so their shells are also hardening quicker because of the dense nutrients in the plants that they're being fed by the staff.
And so it's this great husbandry effect too. And when we talk about husbandry, it refers to challenging an animal in its captive environment in a way that prepares them for the wild One day. Right. And so in this case, the raven call acts as an enrichment challenge for them to become more aware of these things before they're released. And so once they've reached a healthy size at the Living Desert Zoo's captive breeding center, they are then transferred to Edwards Air Force Base and released there. And recently, I think last spring, 70 were released into the wild. And so this is a great story of hope and the first time this has ever been done. So.
[00:36:19] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, I love it. I love reintroductions. They are one of the things that make me the most. I mean, is there anything that gives you more warm and fuzzies than releasing an animal out into the wild?
[00:36:30] Speaker D: I've been really trying to actually get on that project. As a tortoise consultant myself, I can kind of hop between certain projects, and that would definitely be top of my list to handle those cute little tortoise babies, because, my gosh, they are just precious and so adorable, and I don't know if you've ever seen one, but they're like, just so little when they're babies. And. Yeah, that's a great story of hope, though. And I'm grateful to the federal grant that allowed the San Diego Zoo and Living Desert Zoo to work together. I know it's been, I think, the last time I talked, a struggle to get that grant back together, but I know those efforts are still, you know, underway with the captive breeding at the zoos. And it's a collaborative effort, and we love that. Another beautiful example of social ecology and different stakeholders working together to reach, like, a really grounded solution rooted in science and great teamwork, for sure.
[00:37:27] Speaker C: I think another hopeful story just on that note is the Chuckwalla National Monument that got passed in January.
And we talk with Cactus to Cloud. We talked with Cindy Barrows and Colin Barrows, and they, in all of their efforts to get the Chuckwalla National Monument considered a national monument. So that was a huge bright spot, and we kind of started our season with that. And, you know, they. They had to work with so many different stakeholders, tribes, and. And they got it done. And it's. It's just wonderful to see this protected land.
And then also on that note, the Joshua Tree Conservation Act.
[00:38:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I was going to bring that up next, actually. So please go into what this is.
[00:38:14] Speaker D: Perfect.
[00:38:16] Speaker C: Yeah, go for it, Natalie.
[00:38:17] Speaker D: Oh, well, sure. I'll share a little bit about the Jade Tree Conservation Act. So to provide a brief overview, there's two different types of Joshua trees. There's the Eastern Joshua tree And there's the Western Joshua tree. The Eastern Joshua tree can be found further east of Barstow, towards Vegas in the Mojave National Preserve, and towards Vegas. It looks very different than the western Joshua tree. And so the Western Joshua Tree is found in Joshua Tree, and they have their own Joshua Tree Conservation act, so specifically the Western Joshua Tree Conservation Act. And this is unique in that it's an act that was created just to protect the Joshua tree. And it's the first of its kind, really, for any conservation act to protect one species rather than a whole host of things. Where originally it had been proposed to be a candidate under the California Endangered Species act, which is a much broader overview, where several, several species are listed underneath that. And so the fact that one species, one iconic species, I'll note, has its own act, is a big stepping stone in terms of positive conservation news. Now, whether or not it's as effective as we want it to be, we're still finding that out because it's relatively new and it's legislation. I think it was passed in summer of 2023.
And there is some gray area around any loopholes that some developers.
[00:39:46] Speaker B: So what exactly does it do or like, protect or like, how does it work?
[00:39:50] Speaker D: Good question.
So it protects Joshua trees in any sort of land development area, and it also protects Joshua trees on private residences.
So you have to get permission to remove a Joshua tree from your yard and you have to be like, federally allowed to remove them from a project site. Like, you only have a certain number of trees that you can take now because the act protects them. The Joshua Tree Conservation act is a stepping stone in the right direction for stronger desert protections. Along with the Chuckwalla National Monument recently, we saw an uplifting with the desert tortoises status from threatened to endangered earlier this year. I think that was in April.
And so the desert is a hot topic for conservation right now because there's been so much rapid change with human development on the landscape as well as, like, pretty rapid responses from legislation to actually, like, kind of double down and protect the environment even more. With the chuckwalla, with the desert tortoise uplifting, the Western Joshua Tree Conservation act, these are all like really big stepping stones and acting quickly and swiftly in the face of a lot of land development in the desert in California.
[00:41:09] Speaker B: I love big winds like that. Like, just like you said that the fact that one species has its own act like that is incredible. And what that could mean, well, hopefully what it does end up meaning for the species down the road and then all the Land that it's on too.
[00:41:25] Speaker D: You know, that's right.
[00:41:26] Speaker B: Especially something as big as a tree.
[00:41:28] Speaker D: Like, you know, they say that, like, by protecting the tree, even though it's only protecting one species, you're actually protecting a whole host of things by protecting one tree.
[00:41:39] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Keystone species of the. Of the desert, for sure.
[00:41:42] Speaker D: No doubt about that.
[00:41:43] Speaker C: So, going back.
[00:41:44] Speaker B: Yeah. So going back to your season as a whole, what are you or what.
[00:41:51] Speaker A: Do you two really hope that people.
[00:41:53] Speaker B: Take away when they listen to these episodes, when they listen to the whole thing, the whole story, what is the main message that you hope that people get from listening?
[00:42:02] Speaker C: I think finding their own love of the desert and really just highlighting that it is life overlooked. And like the key word, there is life. There is life there.
So I think just like forming a love with the desert and appreciation is would be my key takeaway. Wanting to come and visit and telling your friends that the desert is full of life, it's not a wasteland.
[00:42:31] Speaker D: I would have to agree. I think the main takeaway I want for our listeners to have when they tune into our season two about desert conservation is really understanding the importance of all life and how it's a circular system that coexists with the land in a really unique way. And you have to spend time there to really see everything beneath the surface, you know, connecting with really wide open spaces. And that allows you to connect with yourself, to see how you are just as much a part of this landscape as everything else that is living there, and to listen to more stories and to share those stories far and wide, because that's what inspires action. Right. And so you have to kind of take these steps to get to that action point. And it's understanding and being in nature that you can understand. You're a part of that and feel called to protect it.
[00:43:24] Speaker B: Oh, such an inspirational answer. Yes, absolutely. Hopefully everyone gets those warm, fuzzy feelings when they listen.
[00:43:32] Speaker C: And I think just also to that, like the podcast as a whole is local based conservation. Like, if you're listening to this in another country and you're not in a desert, like, looking to your backyard, looking to your local community and seeing what kind of challenges and problems are popping up in your local area.
Like, you know, I mentioned it before about this anxiety into action. Like, we try to go and find the action items for each episode that pertains to each episode, but how can it relate to, like, your local area?
[00:44:12] Speaker B: That's so good. Yeah. And you just hit my next question. It was for those of us who don't happen to be in Southern California. Like, how can we contribute? But that is such a good way. Just, like, look in our own backyards. Like, I just volunteered with the Sierra Club here and did a huge watershed cleanup here on the Olentangy that goes through the Columbus, Ohio here. Like, and it just felt so good. I've never been so excited to pick up college kid beer cans in my life.
[00:44:42] Speaker C: Like.
[00:44:46] Speaker B: I think I spilled a beer on myself a couple times. I'm like, there's definitely a frat house near here, but it's right all along the watershed, you know? But it felt so good.
Yes, yes, yes. So, Kirill and Natalie, this has been amazing. I'm so happy for both of you for just teaching me all about the Mojave Desert, teaching all of us about this very important ecosystem and where it's located. But of course, I'm not going to let you go without letting us know where to find the show, how to listen, how to interact with you two. If anybody has any further questions. But, yeah, just let us know how to get in touch.
[00:45:24] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:45:25] Speaker C: Awesome. Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much for having us. I'm so happy that we finally got to do this with you and it was such a pleasure having you on our show. So if you're listening, please go and listen to Brooke's episode that we did all about your season in Patagonia. That was so awesome.
But yeah, you can find us anywhere that you get your podcasts. We are.
We're on all of the. All the platforms. We are on YouTube, on Instagram. We're at Planet People Pod and you can find all the links there.
Please subscribe to our YouTube. Also, please, please subscribe to our YouTube.
We never say this, but, like, subscribe to us on whatever you listen to and also, like, rate us.
[00:46:10] Speaker D: It would go on.
Yeah, it really would.
[00:46:14] Speaker C: And comment in terms of how to get in touch with us. DM us.
Our email is on our link tree.
[00:46:20] Speaker D: So, yeah, thank you so much for having us, Brooke.
This has been such a fun conversation. I mean, I'm really excited to share our love of the desert and all things season two for Planet People. And it's been great chatting with you. And yeah, Coral said how you guys can find us. We're on social media and everything and we're happy to connect in any way to those who are listening. Feel free to reach out and be sure to check out Brooke's episode with us, too. And stay tuned for Planet People and all the fun things.
Yeah.
[00:46:52] Speaker C: Season three.
[00:46:54] Speaker B: Yes. I'm so glad to have you too on. It's so important for all of us to support each other and I was so happy to have you two on. I was so honored for you to have me on your show. It just happens when we all come together and support each other. Really, really good things happen. So thank you.
[00:47:10] Speaker C: So true.
[00:47:11] Speaker D: Thank you so much.
[00:47:11] Speaker B: I cannot wait to have you on.
And Phil is really important niche. No desert ecologists have been on the show and that's officially changed today.
[00:47:19] Speaker D: I'm so excited. That's such a big deal. Honestly, the desert is awesome. So everyone listening. Go to the desert. Go visit it. Check out the desert Southwest. Come to California. It's a great place to be.
[00:47:31] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. Thank you both.
[00:47:34] Speaker D: Thank you.
[00:47:38] Speaker A: Thank you for joining me on this wild adventure today.
I hope you've been inspired by the incredible stories, insights and knowledge shared in this episode.
To learn more about what you heard, be sure to check out the show
[email protected] if you enjoyed today's conversation and want to stay connected with the rewildology community, hit that subscribe button and rate and review the show on your favorite podcast app.
I read every comment left across the show's platforms and your feedback truly does.
[00:48:11] Speaker B: Mean the world to me.
[00:48:13] Speaker A: Also, please follow the show on your favorite social media app.
Remember, rewilding isn't just just a concept, it's a call to action.
Whether it's supporting a local conservation project, reducing your own impact, or simply sharing the knowledge you've gained today, you have the power to make a difference.
A big thank you to the guests that come onto the show and share their knowledge with all of us. And to all of you rewad algae listeners for making the show everything it is today.
This is Brooke signing off.
Remember, together we will rewild the planet.
